Note: This entry I started a week or so ago but I didn’t get very far with it; I meant to expand it someday. It’s a busy Friday; I am up to my oxters at work. I decided to post this ‘as is” so there is something up for the day. The suzerains for whom I work have me under a contractual obligation to put out, as it were. Spo.
For someone who has spent thirty years in psychology and how people work, it is a mystery why I am still bewildered by the behaviors of others. This isn’t literally true: I can always surmise the likely reasons to explain what I see. What’s missing of course is the person’s thoughts and history that contributes to their actions. It would be indecorous and ill-mannered of me to approach a stranger with some shenanigan and inquire why are they doing that. I do this for a living anyway and I am not wanting more work as it were. All the same, the scientist in me so wants to interview certain types:
Men in the locker-room who dress/undress underneath their towels. This phenomenon has increased in time. It often looks comic: some burly dude with a large towel wrapped around his waist and thighs, trying not to fall over, as he wiggles his undergarments off or up as the case may be. I am dying to him ‘why’. My best guess is thems doing the towel routine are ashamed of their bodies, or fear their genitalia are deficit. I see this more in younger men than in the oldsters, and more in Hispanic men than the whites. There are a lot of LDS members in these parts. Does anyone know if they are instructed not to be exposed? I am not one to use the sauna but I see men going in and out of them and they are nearly always fully clothed. Saunas attire (I recall) were nude affairs or towels-around-the-waist protocols. Same questions arise about the sauna – why?
Spo-fans of the male persuasion: to you see this at your gyms a well?
Women laughing whenever men say something. Correct me if I’m wrong but I sense women reflexively laugh at even the slightest feeble joke the men make. The men-folk don’t to this as often or readily. Having grown up without sisters there is a part of me that wonders if mothers instruct their daughters to always laugh at what a man might say to them. Perhaps it is something picked up unconsciously somewhere around puberty.
The Spo-fans of the female persuasion please instruct me if this has some truth to it or is it all rubbish.
Folks who buy lottery tickets and cigarettes and the same time. OK, I know this is about selective bias towards risk. Thems buying tickets and smokes are hoping to win the lottery despite abysmal odds while hoping they will not ‘win’ at the safe bet of developing respiratory and heart disease. In my hypothetical interview with them I would ask if they haven’t connected the dots or have they already done so but are denying it in favor of wishful thinking. We all do this viz. pick and choose risks. Cognitive dissidence is more apparent when two risks are presented at the same time, making it more difficult to suppress the facts.
Spo-Reflections 
44 comments
September 17, 2021 at 12:20 PM
claudiajustsaying
The men in locker room . . . no comment.
Women laughing; IMP, to cover up true feelings.
Cigarettes and Lottery tickets; they won at something before . . . just saying, Claudia
September 17, 2021 at 1:17 PM
Urspo
Was this consciously done the laughter to cover up?
September 17, 2021 at 2:32 PM
claudiajustsaying
I don’t think so.
September 17, 2021 at 12:38 PM
Sam
As a women, I crige at women doing the laugh at the feeble humor of any man. I was not rasied to laugh unless I genuainel thought it was funny. I will not understand this either!
September 17, 2021 at 1:23 PM
Urspo
But does it happen? Do you see it too?
September 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM
rjjs8878
A few men at my gym put their underwear on while wearing a towel. Most seem to be on the other team.
My aunt, who can best be described as a 1950’s trophy wife, laughs at anything a man says that is remotely funny. She perfected the art of perching on the arm of sofa next to her husband looking glamorous waiting to laugh. She still does this at 89 but it’s usually next to her most recent boyfriend.
September 17, 2021 at 2:13 PM
Urspo
I still don’t know if thems who do this do so consciously or unconsciously
September 17, 2021 at 8:08 PM
rjjs8878
There are a lot of gay men at my gym. I think some don’t want a gay man seeing them naked while others are insecure about the size of their penis.
September 17, 2021 at 1:53 PM
Debra She Who Seeks
Dear oh dear oh dear, here goes nothing as I attempt to “womansplain” gender politics . . .
Growing up, male and female people are socialized very, very differently from each other (yes, “even still today” although some of the grosser, most harmful aspects are somewhat improved from when I was young). Males are socialized to expect dominance and privilege due to their gender (and are therefore blind to both). Females are (alas, still very commonly) socialized to cater to and enable males with dominance and privilege, and to act from a position of inferiority and deference in regard to them, in order to obtain benefits and/or to remain safe. Sometimes this is called general “people-pleasing behaviour” but in the realm of gender politics, it has also resulted in what’s known as “the duty to mirror.”
“The duty to mirror” trains women to reflect men back to themselves as bigger, better and more impressive than they actually are. Their jokes are always funny, their opinions are always smarter, their physical attributes are always desirable, etc etc etc. When I was a girl, I was explicitly taught (by female relatives, teachers and society) that we must never, ever, ever show ourselves to be smarter, better or more accomplished than boys in any way whatsoever. We always had to be less so that they could be more. No one saw anything wrong with this.
Similar dominant/submissive behaviours of flattery and deference exist in interactions between any group of oppressors and oppressed, whether due to money, class, race, power or what-have-you.
Feminists and lesbians reject and unlearn such socialization. That’s why we get denigrated and called bitches a lot (and worse, of course). To the extent that over the past 50 years, women have moved away from mirroring and other people-pleasing behaviour, a misogynistic backlash has been growing (especially in certain quarters) that is of increasing concern to those who care about gender equality.
September 17, 2021 at 2:19 PM
Urspo
“I was explicitly taught (by female relatives, teachers and society) that we must never, ever, ever show ourselves to be smarter, better or more accomplished than boys ”
thank you! for taking time off to explain this and give some glimpses that someone actually said to do this/something similar.
I connected the dots too – I’ve heard ‘lesbians have no sense of humor’ although I never saw this myself (OK, I see this in patients who are lesbian, but they had no sense of humor because they were symptomatic, not from their sexual orientation). The lack of laughing at what men say is funny I see can be easily interpreted by mean men as ‘lacking humor”
**As I typed that, what came out was ‘mean’ no ‘men’ -there’s a slip!
Yours was the most instructive comment I’ve received this week. Brava and thank you.
September 17, 2021 at 2:52 PM
BadNoteB
An additional thank you for an excellent explanation that expanded my appreciation of several closely related topics while providing refreshing and meaningful servings of food for thought.
September 17, 2021 at 1:53 PM
David Godfrey
Men covering up. I see a younger generation that seem to be afraid to show any outward physical signs of masculinity. They seem to be afraid of anything revealing, no idea why, it must be cultural.
September 17, 2021 at 2:19 PM
Urspo
I think that too. I wonder wear they got it.
September 17, 2021 at 1:53 PM
Dwight W.
The premise of the YMCA for many years up until modern times was, Men and Boys swim completely nude and women usually are clothed. It was just a given, pool filters may have been weaker the fabric would clog the pool filters . But the end point was everyone showed their meat and potatoes when they were swimming, if they were male. As the years passed society or propriety dictated that everyone should be clothed to swim. The first time I went into an all male group shower was after a fourth grade basketball game. One huge room and showers mounted on the wall all around the large room.
While we were showering, a platoon of National Guard Came in stripped off and began showering with us 4th graders. They were friendly and cordial, and I learned two things that day , they had the same parts but not everything was created equal. I also realized I was in love with the naked male body. Mother’s I suppose over the years put pressure on school boards and when everyone decided they didn’t measure up to porn stars , men’s showers became enclosed separated and cubicles. Men who aren’t comfortable stripping in front of other men, are afraid of a reaction or have been taught shame . Any man with a 6 inch flaccid penis does not wrap in a towel to dress /undress. I find that women laugh in my social groups If a man says something funny , these days, but the geisha effect was a way of showing submission . I don’t see this so much. Premium Brands of cigarettes in Florida are about 8 dollars a pack. Everyone here buys lottery tickets, but not everyone buys cigarettes . But usually we gas at the pump and I don’t go inside the store.
September 17, 2021 at 2:23 PM
Urspo
As always thank you for taking time to type this.
I suppose nowadays community showering will be seen as ‘homoerotic’ and this would worry the men what others would think of it
I remember too being in a men’s group with a man who was a member of a long time (half century perhaps) water polo club – always done in the nude as that’s what it was always like. Hugh was quite adamant to defend it as butch and ‘no-homo’; he became slightly irritated/defensive when I suggested it had a touch of homoeroticism to it.
September 17, 2021 at 2:44 PM
Dwight W.
I’m 4 years older than you , Doc, but my reading on anything gay or naked and male is pretty extensive.
September 17, 2021 at 2:06 PM
Old Lurker
Is it sycophantic to note that Debra is a treasure?
I feel that men these days are nervous about wicked old screws ogling them in the locker room. If there is anything men dislike it is being treated the way men treat women. That is basically what homophobia is about, no?
I am also prudish in this regard and have always been so. It does not help that I am ugly. But I read about bloggers taking trips to clothing-optional resorts and it ghasts my flabber.
September 17, 2021 at 2:25 PM
Urspo
She is a dear; please don’t feed her buns and things
I suspect you are correct; thems dressing under towels have some fear the queers are looking at them. If this is so, I don’t have much empathy for them given this is how they treat women/women get this all the time.
September 17, 2021 at 2:15 PM
Gigi Rambles
Debra nailed it on why some women laugh at the most inane things.
September 17, 2021 at 2:26 PM
Urspo
She is a sage – or what Jungians would call Crone-energy. Too bad the word ‘crone’ has lost its positive energy to be seen only as negative. Another example of the strength of Woman being debased I’m afraid.
September 17, 2021 at 2:42 PM
Debbie W.
As a woman, I would really, really hope that I don’t laugh at everything a man says. I am going to be much more conscious of that from now on. I have no experience with men’s locker rooms, so I am unqualified to comment on that, but I will say that, at least in my town market, lottery tickets and cigarettes do not always go together. Of course, I haven’t really given that counter my full attention, either. Once again, your post has made me think!
September 17, 2021 at 3:51 PM
Urspo
On a few times I have pointed out to a female patient she was laughing at everything I said ,none of them were aware they were doing this, and were a bit surprised to have the feedback.
I guess many don’t realized they do this.
I should find out of there is research on the matter.
September 17, 2021 at 3:01 PM
Mistress Borghese
It’s only funny you mention this, because I stopped for gas tonight, and the lady in front of my purchased lottery tickets , cigarettes, and a box of tampons.
September 17, 2021 at 3:49 PM
Urspo
One goes with
what one feels is needed
I suppose
Spo Haiku
September 17, 2021 at 5:34 PM
BadNoteB
I belong to a very plush and pricey gym that I could never justify joining were it not an incredibly convenient (and excuse-busting) 1/2 mile from home. The locker room is luxurious and impeccably clean 24-hours a day. It’s equipped with semi-private shower stalls, a very large jacuzzi, steam room and sauna, and more than adequate room to comfortably change clothes – or take Harper for a morning walk – between the many banks of oversized lockers. As such, I’m comfortable eliminating facility size, comfort and convenience as variables in analyzing the wide variety of locker room behaviors observed throughout my 5 years of membership.
There are obviously differing comfort levels with nudity among members of all ages and body types at all hours around the clock. At one extreme are the guys who have practiced a quick maneuver from briefs to jock strap in an uninterrupted sequence of motion that rivals the most tightly choreographed ballet. This is in contrast to the dudes who completely strip, casually arrange street clothes on hooks and hangers, then mindlessly (and nakedly) search through their gym bag to meticulously lay out the current day’s attire, seemingly unaware of their prolonged exposure or the proximity of fellow members. I can’t say I’ve ever seen the “dress/undress underneath a towel” routine, however.
Similar behavioral differences can be seen along the post-workout pathways to the showers. Most seem to casually wrap a towel around the waist prior to flip-flopping off to the stalls. Others carefully fold the towel at varying lengths of coverage, as though adjusting the hemline of a skirt for the fashion runway (this behavior tends to skew toward the younger, twinkish types). The opposite extreme has the devil-may-care Bubba with a towel carelessly tossed over shoulder – parts exposed and bits a-flapping along the way. Can we possibly be of the same species, let alone the same sex?
In addition to facilities in the locker rooms, the gym also provides “family” jacuzzis, saunas and steam rooms at both the indoor and outdoor swimming pools for those preferring the co-ed experience. Within the men’s locker room, however, it is not uncommon to see guys attired in swimwear from locker to jacuzzi, some leaving the suit on for the entire time in the tub while many remove coverings immediately before entering the pool with others modestly delaying exposure until completely submerged. Observation of those not opting for swimwear indicates a preference for modesty of a towel enroute, yet there are no hooks or facilities to accommodate a towel at the destination. I wonder how many members, like me very often, skip the whole damn experience out of concern for not knowing what the hell appropriate protocol might be?
Surely a rule book exists that I’ve somehow missed all of these years? Or was I sick at home when this topic was covered in junior high school gym class? The gym was quick to post engraved signs prohibiting body shaving and trimming of nails in the saunas and steam rooms shortly after opening… Would it be so hard to publish general guidelines regarding appropriate locker room attire in their fancy Welcome brochures?
September 18, 2021 at 8:08 AM
Urspo
I don’t think I’ve ever seen dress code rules posted at the gym for work out rooms or sauna etc.
I have seen signs outside the sauna in euphemistic language warning if there is sexual shenanigans going on you will be arrested.
The various dress (and undress) of what one wears to the gym is a curious topic.
Right now on FB I am being inundated by adds to wear form-fitting T-shirts these are always set in the gym as if to say you have to look good to go to the gym and impress others. Curious.
September 17, 2021 at 7:47 PM
Linda Practical Parsimony
Debra has it right! Try reading Reflecting Men at Twice Their Natural Size.
September 18, 2021 at 8:09 AM
Urspo
Groovy !
September 17, 2021 at 7:49 PM
Linda Practical Parsimony
oh, I have heard guys who said they would not get naked in front of gay guys.
September 18, 2021 at 8:10 AM
Urspo
I so want to say to these guys ‘honey don’t fool yourself, I can speak on behalf of the gays you are unattractive and no one is ogling you” just to see if they are upset or relieved.
September 18, 2021 at 1:25 AM
Moving with Mitchell
Thanks go to Debra for her wisdom and insight.
Men’s locker room behavior here in Spain, in my experience, is different from that in the US, where it seemed men over 40 were more comfortable without the towel.
September 18, 2021 at 8:10 AM
Urspo
Perhaps another element of growing old with wisdom is not worrying about others judging your looks. Let us hope so.
September 18, 2021 at 2:41 AM
Parnassus
“Cognitive dissidence” is my new favorite psychological term, courtesy of auto-correct, I am sure. When I recognize certain behaviors or political stances, my mind revolts against them, and I am experiencing cognitive dissidence.
–Jim
September 18, 2021 at 8:11 AM
Urspo
Indeed I hope so!
September 18, 2021 at 3:12 AM
Parnassus
Debra’s astute analysis and the following interesting discussion bring up many valid points. But to reject all such behavior might constitute throwing out the baby with the bath. For example, if it is sexist for men to hold doors for women, instead of letting women open their own doors, why not make a new rule of universal consideration for all door operations?
Just yesterday I was reading in a 1943 book by Emily Kimbrough, about her nervousness when making conversation, “But face to face Charlie Brackett makes of me a Tilden [a famous tennis player] of conversation. He laughs at what I say, which is, of course, always the most heady stimulant…I am, or seem to myself to be, sending out and receiving the most spectacular strokes.”
Helen Gurley Brown also discusses this idea (in fact, she made an entire career out of it). Notice that the “charmers” she describes are equally charming to women as to men. The take-away idea (at least for me reading now) is that such behavior should be universal, and that men can take a leaf from the same book. In fact, this idea for men has already been ingrained–how many gruff, “alpha” male junior executives would allow themselves to beat the CEO at golf?
–Jim
September 18, 2021 at 8:12 AM
Urspo
I admit I am a sucker for sweet talking lady types like waitresses and barbers, but these elicit motherly emotions not come-ons .
September 18, 2021 at 7:19 AM
Bob Slatten
While I am a rather modest person, especially in a “changing clothes” situation, I have never thought of dressing or undressing under a towel.
Possibly because I know I’d face plant at some point and a bare, very white ass would be in lull display.
I’m a quicker-dresser-upper.
September 18, 2021 at 8:14 AM
Urspo
Another curious matter I’ve learned is the dress/undress at clothes optional resorts. There, some men stay clothed and I sense this is not so much insecurity but teasing. Indeed the sense of possilbities is often more intriguing than the sense of what actually is.
September 18, 2021 at 3:14 PM
Linda Practical Parsimony
Urspo,
Is it possible that it is a tease to you and not meant to be a tease?
September 18, 2021 at 7:29 AM
Brian Dean Powers
At my gym, the younger men often come dressed for their workout. For them, there’s no clothes-changing or showering at all. The rest of the younger guys tend to be much more modest than us older fellas. As kids, we were expected to be unconcerned with undressing and showering together, or swimming sans suits. I’ve read commentaries suggesting kids today are not even required to shower after gym class in school, which might partly explain their behavior as adults. As a side note, my gym redesigned their locker room a few years ago. For some reason, they took out the private shower stalls and replaced them with one large group shower. Members complained about the lack of privacy, and so barriers were constructed to separate the showers.
September 18, 2021 at 8:16 AM
Urspo
True, most men (I cannot vouch for the ladies) arrive at the gym and go directly to the equipment so few are actually in the locker room, and fewer still use the showers, which are all private with curtains.
I guess I am old enough to remember showering as a group so I see the demand for ‘privacy’ somewhat funny and admittingly a bit ‘wussy’.
September 18, 2021 at 3:17 PM
Linda Practical Parsimony
I cannot use the public showers because all the humidity causes my lungs to quit functioning. I sit on a towel on the drive home and bathe immediately on entering the house. Plus, at the gym i would have to sit 20 minutes to quit sweating. I am not going to shower and continue to sweat and need another shower immediately.
September 18, 2021 at 8:13 AM
Robzilla
Men that covered up? I’m guessing the size of their genitalia may be outside the norm. Both ways.
Women laughing? As Debra said, women were trained to humor men back in the day. It sucks, but it’s true.
I don’t smoke, so I can only guess buying a pack of coffin nails along with a lottery ticket means they’re going to lose 28 minutes of their life?
September 18, 2021 at 8:18 AM
Urspo
It seems to be a consensus women do indeed laugh at what the men-folk say, and the men-folk have issues of being naked in front of each other.
Both have in common men seem more easily hurt if they don’t feel comfortable.