Note: The Board of Directors Here at Spo-reflections were puzzled by this one, and almost didn’t let it through. I don’t blame them, I am not sure what I am saying here either. I thought writing my thoughts out would solidify things but it didn’t work. Spo
Earlier this week at work I met the newly hired RN (nurse practitioner). I am told via office-gossip there is another one making his debut next month. Last autumn there were vague ‘someday’ speeches from The Bosses one or more would arrive some day, and here they are. I don’t know yet what capacity they will be working. These things are not told to me. Over the 17 years at this job I have seen several nurse practitioners come and go and they never stay long; let’s see how long these two last.
I have mixed feelings about nurse practitioners. On the positive, having anyone with a working pager and access to a prescription pad allows me to go away to conferences or on holiday, covered person. Imagine a vacation without having daily to call into work! With a MD and a RN on-board, the patients have a choice of two types of providers. The nurses, usually female, are often preferred by female patients, especially ones with trauma or PTSD issues.* In my experience, nurses are better than doctors, and females are better than males, at providing support and nurturance in counsel, which are so important when dealing with folks with mental illness.
On the negative, the nurses (so far) have come with the attitude ‘I am just as good at this job, buddy”. In my experience this is not so. They boasted their abilities, but quickly bailed when encountering difficult cases. “Oh, I’m just the nurse” they tell these patients, and send them to me. If you are going to claim you are just as good as a doctor, don’t pull this ‘I’m only a nurse” on your patients. On the whole I do a good job, thank you very much, so I often look brilliant in comparison.
Another issue: they don’t stick around, they retire or find other jobs. When they go, which is often sudden, they leave patients in a lurch and I get them – many are not happy about the sudden departure of their provider, and several very unhappy and uncomfortable about seeing the big bad male doctor, member of the patriarchy, and all he represents.**
The pay for two nurses is probably less than the salary of one psychiatrist and the clinic gets more work out of them. If I were a paranoid, I would worry my post is now jeopardy and I will be sacked by The Overlords, as less lucrative.
I wish I was working with another physician. This is said out of professional loneliness. For awhile there was ‘The Other Doctor’ but he went away to do a small pay-out-of-pocket set up***. We didn’t have much in common and we didn’t interact much but it was nice to have a colleague next door to bounce ideas off of him and consult on psychiatry stuff. Finding a proper psychiatrist to work here is near impossible. I sense the clinic is hiring nurses as doctors are not to be found for love or money. The few shrinks looking for work are heavily sought after and they can choose from far more lucrative offers than our humble abode.
I learned the nurse I met will work with children and adolescents , which is more rare than unemployed psychiatrists, so she fills a much-needed demand. I hope she stays. The fellow showing up in February is a wait and see sort whether he will be full time or a part time person is he an RN, a MD, or some other alphabet combination, and is he well over four feet.
Do you see a RN or a MD for your health care? Are you satisfied?
In your experience, are RN practitioners as good/better/worse than the doctor?
*There is a paradox to this. In general, female patients do better with female practitioners, but you don’t say to a female patient “because you are female, you are being assigned to the female nurse, and not the doctor.” Not nice.
**On the other hand, some patients are glad to have a ‘proper doctor’ now, having seen the nurse when I wasn’t available.
***It turns out a lot of shrinks in PHX work only for cash. How they manage to pull this off I don’t know.
49 comments
January 27, 2022 at 3:56 AM
DwightW.
Usually your mind seems open and clear about anything. I read yesterday about you being on call 24-7 and never having any life of your own. So here are two people coming to help, as it were. The most annoying thing you repeatedly did was to call them “nurse” .ARNP educated nurse practitioners can give anesthesia in a surgical setting, and they can deliver babies in the nurse midwife setting. I have found them to be very approachable as my mother sees an ARNP. She is thorough kind and extremely attentive, laser focused on my mothers every Health nuance. She does not treat my mother as if she were just another Medicare patient. That said, when anyone in the Allied Health Professions works in an office, the M.D. is always the boss. If I were you I would go into this with an open mind , you may be surprised what you accomplish. Any Doctor who can make a go of it in a fee for service practice , where cash and private insurance is king will choose that, simply because of the autonomy. But then he becomes responsible for payroll, taxes , supplies Accreditation … Another Dr. May not be the answer, I always found the young pups that get in trouble and need to be bailed out most annoying. Yes, the right man or woman as a care provider is an asset to any office. With your amount of education, there should be a marked difference in the respect given to you . I do believe some people want to be , or at least act like they are more qualified and educated than they are. But that is an issue that the office manager or Clinic administrator should broach.
January 27, 2022 at 6:39 AM
Urspo
I call them ‘nurse’ as The Bosses referred them as such; it was the word used so I go with it. I am not familiar with their proper titles; I try to address people by how they wish to be called. None of them have object so far to being referred to a nurse. Let’s see how these two new ones want to be addressed.
January 27, 2022 at 5:00 AM
Jennifer Barlow
Hmm. I’ve had terrible doctors/nurses of both genders. I usually don’t have a preference as far as that goes. The few NPs I’ve had experience with have been wonderful, though. They usually spend more time with me and seem easier to talk to than MDs. So many doctors (of both genders but usually males) have that god complex and come across as arrogant. I’m sure that you’re an exception to that, though! 🙂
January 27, 2022 at 6:41 AM
Urspo
I concur on the whole nurses spend more time with patients. I do not know if this is part of the training/culture, or something about the gender (nurses still predominantly female). There are many pressures to doctors NOT to spend time with patients; most MDs say this is their #1 complaint viz. the things that get in the way of direct patient care.
January 27, 2022 at 5:14 AM
martin
My GP is an MD. He has evolved into a man bun-wearing multi-tatted hipster over the time he has been my GP. He always runs late because he gives you time. I once heard another patient in the waiting room describe him as “easy on the eyes”. He is. His only flaw is a tendency to ascribe my ailments to “getting old”. Hmmmph. I wouldn’t change him for the world. I have not been treated by an NP (what we call them in Canada, I believe) but I have a good friend who is one. I have every confidence his ability.
January 27, 2022 at 6:44 AM
Urspo
A universal situation is patients understandably upset at having to wait, yet when in the office they do not want to be rushed. I am proud I am a rare doc who is nearly always on time; the flip side though is patients know I am not not going to dilly dally as the next one is coming in.
January 27, 2022 at 6:34 AM
jenn
I won’t go into my old Canadian, “Oh, if only I HAD access to a dr. of any sort” diatribe again. I will say that I recently had the pleasure of being seen by a nurse practitioner and she was thorough, completely professional, kind, and ordered the tests, etc. that I was hoping for. I would see her again in a heartbeat. I suppose for some things I prefer a female, only because I think she might be able to relate better, but it’s not necessary. My only hope, whoever I see, is that they at least act like they have time to listen.
I was with someone when they went to see a psychiatrist and upon arrival, the dr. grabbed her phone and set the timer. I was disgusted. -Jenn
January 27, 2022 at 6:47 AM
Urspo
Being heard/listened to is the main matter; I try my damndest to do that if nothing else.
The vignette you describe is appalling. I can only hope there is some missing context to explain it.
January 27, 2022 at 6:39 AM
David Godfrey
I see (once every 12-15 months) an MD. And old fashioned general practice, I wish she would use electronic prescribing, but she is understanding and treats me like the stubborn adult I am.
January 27, 2022 at 6:48 AM
Urspo
Patience above! Someone still uses paper prescriptions? I thought they were actually no longer accepted.
January 28, 2022 at 6:25 AM
David Godfrey
One of those annoying state by state things, VA didn’t mandate electronic, I think except for narcotics (that I don’t need.)
January 27, 2022 at 6:44 AM
Debra She Who Seeks
Nurse practitioners are being increasingly relied upon in Canada’s rural and northern areas because most doctors don’t want to live anywhere but large urban centres. I’ve never encountered an NP, but I would be confident of their competence within their designated sphere of practice like any other regulated professional.
January 27, 2022 at 6:49 AM
Urspo
Getting docs to live more rural is a universal challenge.
Younger docs have the burden they come out of school with heavy debt; it pushes them to take more lucriavitve jobs with better pay.
January 27, 2022 at 7:11 AM
Debra She Who Seeks
In a universal healthcare fee-for-service system as in Canada, they’re paid the same no matter where they live and practice.
January 27, 2022 at 7:51 AM
Urspo
Does this promote doctors living in more areas, more spread out? I hope so.
January 27, 2022 at 7:30 AM
Moving with Mitchell
I’ve never worked with a nurse practitioner. I would be happy to see one and would trust their credentials. But I can imagine how difficult (and lonely) in can sometimes be in your situation. It seems like a revolving door, which makes any professional relationship difficult. I’m glad for your patients’ sakes that you’ve been so dedicated. I have an RN sister-in-law. She’s very bright and dedicated and, my guess is, a very capable nurse. However, from her first day as a nurse, she claimed to know more than any doctor. Not all doctors graduate at the top of their class, but I can’t imagine what it was like for competent individuals to have to work with her.
January 27, 2022 at 7:54 AM
Urspo
The roles of doctors and nurses are a-changing. There is more cooperation – good! and less me doctor-you nurse dynamics – good too! I wonder though if fewer folks will want the long ordeal process of becoming a physician if what this means is ‘really no different” than being a LP RN.
January 27, 2022 at 8:11 AM
Ron
I have a nurse practitioner now at the as my main doctor. For the thirty some years I’ve been receiving my medical care through the VA I haven’t had a “real” doctor because the VA doesn’t pay them enough to stay. For a stretch tgerdd Ed I did have a real doctor and he was a treat. However he has to gone by the way and I’m back to a nurse practitioner. His name is Don and he’s a body builder type (big biceps) who appears to care about me and my well being and not just going through the motions in fact right now I’m sitting in an express lab facility waiting to get my blood taken for tests per his instructions for my low white blood cell count. I could go to a doctor outside the VA but I get all my prescriptions through the VA andd Ed I don’t want to complicate that aspect of my health care. And the VA saved me with several operations when I didn’t have health care. They’ve taken very good care of me.
January 27, 2022 at 8:14 AM
Urspo
There is a growing trend to replace MDs with other types for sake of finances. I don’t know of any studies that say this has overall made care worse or the same or better. Curious to find some.
January 27, 2022 at 9:12 PM
Ron
I can’t tell the difference. Bill’s doctors and mine at the VA have been fine as have the nurse practitioners. Of course this only applies to the general practice doctors. Other doctors I have used have been specialized surgeons, which are different doctors.
January 27, 2022 at 8:17 AM
rjjs8878
I see a PA. I’ve never met the doctor who owns the practice.
On an unrelated topic, I have three neighbors who are psychiatrists. Urgent psychiatric care is only steps away. I wonder if they are in network for me?
January 27, 2022 at 9:54 AM
Urspo
Dear me! Psychiatrists as neighbors! There goes the neighborhood.
January 27, 2022 at 10:22 AM
rjjs8878
They are better than the many lawyers who live here as they have less attitude.
January 27, 2022 at 3:39 PM
BadNoteB
No painted rock collections in their yard, one must assume… 😉
January 27, 2022 at 7:18 PM
Urspo
if that happens, complain to the HOA; this is the way to handle things I see.
January 27, 2022 at 8:47 AM
johnmichael42003
I have seen nurse practioners and I have seen doctors at the clinic I go to. I like them equally as well. I am fortunate to have the clinic I go to, and appreciate both. I think because the over lords there are extremely nurturing to their employees, this gets passed down to us patrons.
I would however be angry if I was told, well I’m only a nurse, let me go get the doctor. I think that is bailing out on the responsibilities for which was was trained.
January 27, 2022 at 10:25 AM
Urspo
I am glad to hear another testimony of a good RN relationship and the clinic sounds health too. Fortunate fellow to have such.
January 27, 2022 at 9:22 AM
Anne
What would you do without your daily scolding from Auntie?
I , too, was offended by your lumping NPs with RNs. It does a great disservice to NPs. Please call her/him a Nurse Practitioner. Maybe lumping their talents as “the same” is part of your problem.
In any case, my husband and I both really like NPs and PAs. They listen better than MDs.
P. S. Did you confront the powers that be about your raise?. No one will look after you, if you don’t.
January 27, 2022 at 10:28 AM
Urspo
My ignorance: I do not know the difference between RN and NPs in their training/responsibilities. It doesn’t help I suppose they want to be addressed by their first names (I always ask) not by title.
LPs/RNs – either way I concur they do a better job than the MDs to listen. I don’t know how much of this is environmental or training. Certainly doctors feel pressured to do more in less time thus listening gets short-sheeted
The Boss is working from home this week. I figured this was better done face to face.
January 27, 2022 at 2:07 PM
Will Jay
I think that,although it is a gray and fuzzy line, there is a place for NP/PA just in terms of appropriate allocation of resources. In the past whenever I’ve done something foolish that required prompt, but not emergency, medical attention, my Primary Care physician was able to have his staff set up an appointment for me at the after hours family clinic where a NP/PA was able to patch me up and get me out the door quickly. I didn’t clog up the PCP’s office and I got prompt, qualified medical attention for my needs.
January 27, 2022 at 2:21 PM
Urspo
This is a good point: most of office appointments are routine, ‘easy to do’ type of things. Arguably a PA or NR (or LP I’ve been told is the proper letters) could take care of the small stuff.
For more pressing matters, more difficult things then the big bad know-it-all doctor can swoop in and flex his muscles and save the day etc. OK I will leave quietly.
January 27, 2022 at 9:41 PM
Will Jay
When you swoop in, does the fabric of your superhero cape match your bow tie and mask? You not only stun them with your brilliance, but you leave them breathless in amazement of you ensemble!
January 27, 2022 at 5:10 PM
Catrina
I have a primary care doc, a cardiologist and an endo. I prefer to see the PA in two of the three. They seem to have more time for me. And…they’re all female. I just feel we relate better than with the male docs. Oh my Lord!! Am I being sexist?!
January 27, 2022 at 7:12 PM
Urspo
This is a common matter really, patients feel better with providers of the same ilk. Truth be told, health care professionals treat patients better when they of are the same persuasion – although they are loathe to admit it is true. Why else do I get gay patients asking if I know of therapists who are gay? or women finding they are more at ease with female physicians? It is a sort of sexism yes – but not in the same vein as a therapist/MD not wanting to see patients of a certain gender.
January 27, 2022 at 5:57 PM
BadNoteB
My frame of reference toward the medical community is from a small town where there were only 3 practicing MDs… the doctor who removed my mother’s tonsils at 12 years of age was on call at the local hospital for delivery when I was born 15 years later. He was the same guy who performed the required physical upon my entry to college at 18 years of age and continued to treat my entire family up until he was discovered dead in the parking lot of his office at 74 years of age. I’ve never been treated by other than an MD but only because that’s only alternative I’ve ever known.
Several years ago, I inherited 24/7 care of two octogenarian parental units, one a bed-ridden paraplegic and the other afflicted with dementia/ Alzheimer’s. Both qualified for institutional care yet it was impossible to find a facility that would accommodate both afflictions to “warehouse” them together (after almost 70 years of marriage). The recommendation of institutional care ignored the fact that they’d be bankrupt of their life’s savings in less than 2 years and exit this world as wards of The State. I’ll never forget the callousness of one MD who recommended a very pleasant “adjoining” extended care facility where they could wave to each other across a common parking lot each morning… what compassion!
Convinced I couldn’t possibly offer less, I packed them up and relocated them some 1700 miles away from the only place they’d ever known as home, where I could attempt to care for them myself. No children and never responsible for nurturing a life form outside a tropical fish tank, I was immediately overwhelmed by demands on a full-time care giver. It was an unbelievably exhausting experience that I readily admit zero chance of success with had it not been for the caring compassionate understanding of a PA that was referred to me by a co-worker.
Dr. Kate was the wonderous Mary Poppins of home health care. Within a matter of days things transformed to “spit-spot” with lab results adjusting medication dosages and antibiotics treating persistent (but previously undiagnosed) bladder infections – all resulting from lab specimens drawn from the unimaginable convenience the home living room. By week’s end, I had a list of available resources to hire for everything from bed-baths to assisted showers to someone to be there “parent-sitting” when I had to be absent to meet obligations with two (incredibly kind, understanding and flexible) employers. Most were not, but many of these services were covered under Medicare, if one understood the rules governing billing. Regardless, out-of-pocket expenses over a two-year period never approached outrageous prices quoted for 2 months of individual institutional care.
I discovered “Dr. Kate” was not an MD somewhat by accident. After a year of care, it became apparent that the dementia/Alzheimer condition required support of light narcotics to enable continued care at home. Dr. Kate revealed that she needed physician approval of the prescription as she wasn’t permitted to prescribe narcotics. I was initially mortified that I hadn’t been aware our “treating physician” wasn’t a legitimate “doctor”. I quickly realized that the level of care and compassion being delivered far exceeded anything my parents had ever known with the traditional MD delivery system. Most important, it was the level of care they wanted, needed and were most comfortable receiving…
Both parents were able to realize their ultimate dream for old age: each of them died peacefully, at home, with a loving family member by their side. That never would have happened within our traditional medical delivery system and I’ll be forever grateful for the kind and caring support that Dr. Kate, PA (and her minions) provided to each of us through their understanding of the simplicity and value of compassionate end-of-life care.
January 27, 2022 at 7:14 PM
Urspo
A testimony!
We long for and hope to find someone of compassion who will listen and actually give a damn about us. Alas, it is seems to be a rare matter these days, and the doctors/health care workers are not solely to blame. The system, esp. the American one is designed for profit, not for healthcare.
January 27, 2022 at 7:14 PM
Linda Practical Parsimony
Before I found my present MD, I used a doctor in a small clinic out in the country. She was a doctor, a PhD nurse. I am forever grateful for her care.
However, I went to the ER for a fall where I hit head first on a concrete step. I was told by the PA to go home and soak in a hot bath….this for a head injury. They did xray the scrapes on my knees but never addressed the head injury. He needed to be slapped silly.
January 27, 2022 at 7:17 PM
Urspo
It sure sounds like it
I am curious if doctors and such are ‘doing better’ now there is social media feedback sites like “Yelp!” that leave negative reviews.
Funny, a controversial lecture, based on research, that addresses ‘why doctors get sued’ found the main deterrent is,,, wait for it… don’t be a jerk to patients.
January 27, 2022 at 10:15 PM
Linda Practical Parsimony
I wonder, too. I do believe doctors are jerks, well some are. I have put up with those and now, just never go back.
January 27, 2022 at 10:16 PM
Richard Portman
Are you sure you about this? Next time i get sick, of course i would want dr spo to help me. Maybe you are overworked?
January 28, 2022 at 9:28 AM
Urspo
I don’t believe I am over-worked compared to other doctors. I sense I work more than shrinks in private practice, but I don’t have data to support this emotional hypothesis.
January 28, 2022 at 2:48 AM
Robert
I would have thought a psychologist or two might bolster providers.
January 28, 2022 at 9:29 AM
Urspo
It is hoped by having a few new folks able to write prescriptions as it were will boost business and maybe make me less in need to see the new folks. We will see.
January 28, 2022 at 3:54 AM
Parnassus
In general I would prefer an MD, even if their time is more limited. They have seen a wider variety of difficult cases, and are more prepared to recognize an unusual condition. That said, there are good and bad of both ilks, and whether MD or RN, I just want a good one. Also, good nurse’s aids (are there still orderlies out there?) can make all the difference in the world.
–Jim
January 28, 2022 at 9:30 AM
Urspo
Yes, the quality of the providers surpasses their skill often.
January 28, 2022 at 6:39 AM
Robzilla, Native Of Slam Diego
I have had a lot of bad doctors so I don’t have a particular one anymore. It’s been awhile since I’ve had to visit a hospital so I don’t recall how the nurses were either.
January 28, 2022 at 9:30 AM
Urspo
All docs is quacks.
January 28, 2022 at 5:35 PM
Pipistrello
I don’t know if the nurse practitioner is a thing in this country. Some practices have a nurse to dress wounds and take blood and whatnot, like where I’ve started to go after my GP retired last year. I actually went the other week to have some blood taken for a test and the nurse and doctors were all isolating awaiting covid results after an exposure at the clinic. It was just the receptionist and podiatrist on duty and the podiatrist leapt up to do it! Luckily, she knew what end was what on the needle.
January 29, 2022 at 6:46 AM
Urspo
What a situation!
For decades my specialty was at a disadvantage for not having ‘billable’ procedures; in covid I was easily transferred to working at home and lost no income, nor had do all the at-clinic protocols you write about.